Brent Leary, David Raab, Anand Thaker, and host Chitra Iyer talk about 5 significant martech themes that will – or should matter in 2020 – with a look back and a look forward. The themes we picked are:

1. Customer data management (how could we not!)

2. Adtech and martech convergence: as obvious as PBJ?

3. The exponential evolution of sales tech: ++ Brent’s extensive recap of what stood out at Dreamforce 2019)

4. Analytics and the future of data visualization for marketers: will we finally see the light at the end of the analytics tunnel?

5. A round-up of the transformative tech that will impact our space: AI was too obvious

+ two new terms coined on the show(!):

  • When it comes to integration of tech to enable seamless, omnichannel experiences, get ready for..(drumroll) OmniTech! 
  • #SSOT Anand says Single Source of Truth is overrated here’s why you should be thinking about #SSOT Single Source of TRUST (no need to repaint the signs!)

Before we begin, we’ve gotta ask: feel like giving us a New Year’s present?

- We’d love to have your feedback or review on iTunes

- A quick FOLLOW on Soundcloud or Spotify will give us the muscle we need to get into 2020 with season 3 of The Talking Stack!

And now- the show highlights:

1.  At 02:00 What is significant in the customer data management space?

  • David’s biggest milestone in 2019 was Salesforce, Adobe, and Oracle coming out with seemingly legit CDP’s. “’s going to occupy a big space in the centre of market – will be interesting to see if the pure CDP vendors are going to react- will they get more specialized and own a niche (by industries or verticals, business model, focus area, etc.) or will they defend?”
  • Privacy is the other big significant concept. “It’s getting marketers rethinking how they will approach the concept of customer data - it’s no longer about first assembling things and then figuring how to use it. Marketers need to be much more purposeful about what data they are going to take, how they will take it, how they will manage consent, storage, usage governance, etc.”
  • Anand asks: What are Oracle, Adobe, and Salesforce doing differently now that they are part of the CDP conversation? David says “there’s a very specific technical change….”
  • Brent asks: When will CDP become about more than just marketing? David tells us why the conversation around ‘a CDP is about more than just marketing’ will grow in 2020 –  He also warns us of the danger of that happening. (hint: CDP should be an enterprise resource but not just another IT tool.)
  • Anand adds: The 2 drivers of CDP investments. “Privacy is a driver – but it’s a stick. CDPs as an engine for digital transformation/ customer experience is the more aspirational reason why CDP investments will grow – it is the carrot.” David counters that DX itself is mostly about operational efficiency, not transformative marketing – do you agree?

Also listen to:

Episode 56: Lean Surveillance, Brand Value and Other MarTech Disruptions | with Duane Schultz

Episode 55: A new CDP Trend

Episode 52: When the Enterprise Owns the Data | with Alexei Yukna

Episode 50: Why Data Activation Matters | with David Raab

Episode 46CDP R(evolution): 5 Major Factors Buyers Should Think About | with Zach Van Doren, CMO Labs

2.  At 14:00 Will Adtech and MarTech finally converge to cut out the biggest silo in CX?

  • Silos remain a challenge for marketing and keeps a lot of the possibilities around customer experience wanting. Outsourcing of core marketing by brands hasn’t helped either.
  • The biggest change is the addressability of media- the major delineation was because of the ability to address and not address- now with most media being addressable, there is no reason they should not converge
  • The new experience-driven (versus campaign or channel-centric) approach will also lead to the convergence
  • Acquisition activities and retention activities should not be separate – it will lead to convergence of every tech possible. Listen in as David coins the term ‘Omni-tech on the Taking Stack!!

Also listen to:

Episode 54: Mobile Marketing, AdTech, and the Future (It's More Than 5G) | with Jake Moskowitz from Emodo Institute/ Ericson

Episode 47: Data-Driven Creativity for CX | with Akhilesh Tiwari, TCS

Episode 30: Do Customers want Personalization? + 50 shades of Identity Management

Episode 33: Demand Orchestration

3.   At 18:30   What’s worth watching in Sales tech?

  • Brent Leary asks (and answers): Will salespeople finally stop hating CRM in 2020? What will give salespeople a real reason to use CRM in 2020? What will take CRM from being a data store to help Salespeople get real success?
  • He also tells us why Voice is going to be hugely transformational for sales tech and wonders if vendors are even realizing how game-changing voice can be for sales tech. The combination of AI + conversational interfaces like voice are starting to really impact and with good reason.
  • Chitra asks: What will the power equations in marketing and sales look like if salespeople actually started using CRM optimally?
    • Brent tells us why he thinks such a thing happening could change the nature of the sales job.
    • Brent and David talk about why the subscription economy is changing the nature of the salesperson's job too.
  • Anand reminds us that the ‘AI-fication’ of sales tasks and the retraining of sales to be value creators are keys to the future of sales – not sales tech per se.
  •  At 32.00: Brent shares his report from what he found the most interesting at Dreamforce 2019. Here are the themes he details:
    •  36.30 #SSOT: single source of truth/ customer 360/ data integration to create the SSOT
    • Voice as the future of CRM
    • AI, empathy and humanizing sales
  • Anand coins an alternate meaning of SSOT: Single Source of TRUST versus single source of truth (find out why at 38 mins)

4. At 38:00 Analytics and the future of data visualization for marketers

  • Visualization versus voice or visualization plus voice - what will be the most useful for marketers? Our panellists discuss what really matters
  • Anand thinks data visualisation is crucial because it has the potential to help marketers become business leaders, but reminds us that people and training and equipping people to use tech intelligently is the key, rather than the analytics tech itself
  • Brent argues that Voice (originally meant for better CX) actually enables better employee experience too (and more powerfully)

Also listen to:

Episode 55: BI Beyond Dashboards + What’s up with B2B CDPs? | with Pedro Arellano from Looker

Episode 42: Being Strategic About Marketing Ops + Google's Intent Insight | with Jocelyn Brown, Allocadia

Episode 38: Measuring Marketing, CDP Certification and How Google Innovates | with Babak Hedayati, TapClicks

5. At 44:00 The transformative technologies to look out for

  • Brent highlights the impact of AI, voice, NLP, smart devices and data visualization as the most significant technologies because they impact both- employees and customers – equally

  • David adds that the wiring behind the voice – the really smart integration layer that can take voice queries and connect to the right system in the backend – to respond- will be the real gamechanger. “A really smart integration layer can enable us to ask questions to help us do our job better without worrying about which system at the backend needs to do the job.”
  • David also tells us why he thinks location may be the underrated one to watch for.
  • Anand says the way people collaborate will be the real disruption, versus any specific technology. Do you agree?

Also, listen to

Episode 58: AI in Marketing: Use-Cases, Readiness, Skill Sets, Challenges, and Ethics | with Loren McDonald, Acoustic

Episode 49: The Smarter Martech Stack: Practical Tips and Best Practices | with Anita Brearton, Cabinet M

Episode 40: 5 Crucial ‘B2B Conversational Marketing’ Insights| with Dave Gerhardt, Drift

Episode 28: Voice, Search, AdTech, Mobile Marketing & more – Talking Stack Season Finale 2018 with Marty Kihn

Follow us on SoundCloudSpotify or leave us a review on iTunes. Have a great week. Thank you!

Chitra [00:00:13] Welcome back, everyone, to the season finale of the Talking Stack, the last episode for the year before we head off into the bright new horizons of 2020. Today we are doing a rundown, all five big themes that we think are worth thinking about as we head into 2020. So you can maybe reflect on these or think about what's coming in the future. But today, I have a great panel that's going to do both with me on these five points. So very quickly today, we have a very warm welcome for David Raab and on and Tucker and we have special guest on who is Brentt Leary, an old friend who joins us back again for the second time on the show. Brentt, who leads CRM essentials and is obviously a well regarded name in the crm space. Thanks for joining us.

Chitra [00:01:03] The five topics we pick for discussion today is customer data, which includes obviously CDP personalization, privacy and how different kinds of marketers are using all of these concepts and in a highly dynamic sort of market space. And when the space the second one is Martech, which is more about the integration between marketing and Martech, an ad tech and where we think that's going to head off to in the coming year, we've been hearing things about it all year long. So that'll be interesting. Then the third one is sales tech, which includes CRM sales enablement of B2B content marketing. And of course, we have brand here. So like I said, we'll be talking about Dreamforce and what's new in sales tech and sales enablement or them. The fourth one was marketing analytics. We've heard a lot about B, ISCI and how data visualization is going to finally step into the next century to make marketers more self-sufficient when it comes to using data to make data driven decisions. So we'll talk a little bit more about that. And finally, we're going to round it off with a quick look into some of the top disruptive technologies that we think have the potential to impact B2B and B2C marketing. And that would include things like 5G and IVR and stuff like that. So great. Let's start with the first one customer data management, personalization, privacy online and all of that stuff. The customer data space was really busy in 2019. There were lots of modules that had lots of acquisitions and a lot of expansions into what constitutes a CDP, which is kind of the core technology in the space right now or the most popular that we hear about the way marketers are approaching their data management needs. And then how that's impacting the choice of customer data platforms or the DMP or whatever they choose in terms of technology to manage that. On Episode 46 this year, we had Zach Van Doren and we talked about some of the key trends and things to think about, like choosing CDP vendor. And then in episode 55, we again spoke about B2B CDP and what's going on in that space. Some of the really cool concepts we heard about and on different episodes was the democratization of detail with tools like CDP and identity resolution. We talked about lean surveillance, privacy by design and several other milestones. So, David, let me start with you. What are the big milestones for you in this space in 2019 and what are you going to be watching for in 2020?

David Raab [00:03:48] Of course, the biggest milestone is Salesforce, Adobe, Oracle coming in with with what seem to be legitimate CDP, although they're still sort of not 100 percent in the market with those things. And we get different answers from different people at those companies about where they are, but they are getting closer and in some cases their products and market, in some cases their products and pilot. But they all have the design. Right. And it took quite some time to kind of figure out what it was the market really wanted. So they are already having an impact even before the products go into general release. And what that does is it obviously kind of occupies a big space in the center of the market. So now it tends to kind of push everybody else a little bit to the periphery, not that they are giving up that territory without contesting it. But, you know, they realize there are some people who just want to buy Salesforce or just want to buy Adobe who just want to buy Oracle. So that's sort of going to be their default choice. And then you have to fight really hard to convince them to do otherwise. So that means that the other guys are going to be more specialized either by industry or by big companies or by scope of product or, you know, there's a bunch of different ways that you can, in fact, take a nation sort of occupy and defend it. So that's overall that's probably the major thing that's happening, at least in the CDP world. You know, in the customer data management world in general, again, things like privacy are, you know, having a huge impact on people, just kind of rethinking about, well, how am I going to approach this whole concept of customer data? You know, the the default attitude is almost I'll just pull it all together, you know, sort of assemble everything I possibly can and then I'll figure out how to use it, which is, you know, kind of a tempting thing to do. And in some ways, I don't even feel feel it's the wrong thing to do. But when privacy comes involved, then that's simply no longer a viable approach. You know, we've got the pros and cons. It's just not an option anymore. She really does have much more purposeful in thinking about what data you are going to take and what do you you're not going to take. And if you do take it, how are you going to manage the consent? And Harry, how are you going to keep it? And just how are you going to govern the use of it, which is still a territory that we're just beginning to see people really kind of thinking through. You know, some of the companies that are specialists in privacy data management have pretty good approaches to it. The one sort of more general who are just for customer data management companies without a privacy focus are beginning to take. You know, come to think of it here, some features I have to add to make this happen. So that's a, you know, kind of a slow moving change that's going to ripple through. But it really once we get to the other side of that, things are going to look quite different.

Anand Thaker [00:06:42] Just for generally just a foundational question, like get Adobe, Salesforce, Oracle, what are they doing differently that now besides saying and making an announcement that they're in the CDP or that they have CDP solutions, what are they doing differently now in terms of being a part of the CDP conversation?

David Raab [00:07:06] Well, the very specific technical change they made, which originally they all said. Oh, we don't need to store the data. We'll just have a common idea that we will append to all the debt, to all the data that sits out in the email system, in DMP system and Web. What personalization system and all the other point solutions that they already had. And then we will just assemble profiles on the fly and took. I was kind of a natural approach certainly for Salesforce and for Adobe. Oracle, I think always had more of a database centric attitude just because their oracle. Yet that approach doesn't work because there are certain use cases that are important use cases like trend analysis, like tracking customers over time, kind of core things that you need to do that excuse me, don't really work very well. If you're going to try to assemble the profiles on the fly A because some of that data might get thrown away in the operational systems because they really don't need the old data and B because there's simply, you know, some time processing requirements that are pretty intensive. If you truly try to do everything on the fly system so certain about week pre calculation, that's needed. So it took them a while to sort of grasp that that wasn't going to work and then to actually develop solutions based on that realization, which do require you to pull out the data and store it someplace else in a specialized CDP data store. So again, they all kind of came to that conclusion and they're now all in various stages of delivering systems that meet that requirement.

Brent Leary [00:08:39] I'm just I'm really curious to see when the CDP become a little bit more than just about marketing. It seems like right now everything is driven strictly through the lens of marketing. Maybe that's because, you know, it's trying to get it up and trying to get it off the ground and trying to get it actually get it going and working. But it just seems to me like when you have just so much data coming from so many different areas and perspectives of business, it's more than just. Well, at least it seems to be. It has the potential to be more than just a marketing centric device. And I think when you see what Oracle is CX unity, you do see a little bit more of a comprehensive view of data outside of just the customer. Kind of the marketing perspective, though, do you see that changing in 2020? Do you see it more as a way to go a little bit beyond the scope of marketing? I know it seems like marketing owns it right now. Maybe they want to hold it as tightly as possible, but it seems like the benefit of a CDP goes beyond just that lens.

David Raab [00:09:48] I think there is a realization in the industry that that it goes beyond marketing and we actually change the definition more than a year ago now. It used to be marketing managed as part of our definition and we just changed the package software specifically because we see the enterprise wide applications, things like privacy and governance really push you to look beyond marketing with that because you basically it's you can't leave it to the marketers to manage that data. It's an enterprise resource. And you know, the governance guys, the legal guys, the compliance guys, they all really want to make sure that what's being done is being done properly. So that just if nothing else, that alone would pull it outside of marketing to be more of enterprise resources, which means our is going to manage it or at least run the systems. You know that. The danger is that. If you pull it outside of marketing and the marketers lose control, then the marketers might not get what they need and maybe half to use cases are primarily marketing use cases even still. So you got it. So it should be an enterprise resource and there are plenty of other departments and companies that use it, but you don't want it to be something that becomes another I.T. tool that marketers then really don't get very good value from. So there's this balance that has to be managed between the two of them. And yes, it totally is an enterprise resource. What typically happens in most companies we hear.

Anand Thaker [00:11:15] So I agree with you, Brent. This is something I've been talking about with regards to marketing needing to think beyond the department in the first place. But in CDP being one of those vehicles, I actually discussed this through the CDP Institute about why this is an engine for digital transformation. And now this is really getting picked up by a lot of the management consulting firms because they recognize, oh, wait, you know, businesses don't use these hundred year old frameworks anymore in terms of how they get to market. They really are based on the customer and the customer centricity. So so I think the two that I've seen, the two different drivers for why someone would start to invest in a CDP, I feel like privacy certainly is one of them. As David mentioned, but it's more the stick than the carrot, the carrot and the aspiration because we're an aspirational space. Is this digital transformation conversations and then the customer experience conversations?

Brent Leary [00:12:13] Sometimes it feels like you hear the customer experience, you hear that term a lot, but it seems like depending on who you're asking, always comes with a, you know, a certain lens of what it means to them as opposed to the overall, because customer experience crosses all boundaries and, you know, different people in the company and different functions and roles. And I think if CDP can help bring that together and bring an understanding across the organization of, you know, customer experience and customer journey means more than just one aspect of that, you know, that piece in the puzzle, then I think it's great. I think it has opportunity, do something really big. But I'm just I'm this kind of skeptical because I'm I'm old. I've been around it. It tends that all these kind of technology that has that potential. It seems to get engulfed by the individual focus or area of focus. And that area wants to do, you know, and a focus on what they do and not necessarily look at the whole. And that's where these kind of things seem to suffer a bit.

David Raab [00:13:28]  half the time when people say customer experience, they really talk on customer service. And it was just sort of like, you know, an upgraded, you know, fancy term for the same thing. And then half the time they're talking about sort of the comprehensive, you know, customer experience across all channels. Marketers who prefer that broader definition then say, and therefore we should be in charge of it. Right. Because for some reason, which has not really happened in most cases, it was actually I was just yesterday looking at some data and they asked who is responsible for CX? And like, you know, no one was the CEO. Number two is acts like the sales department and marketing was down there at number six or something like most companies. And to some extent, digital transformation also has often meant if you look at, again, data, it's often an economy play, you know, an efficiency play. And maybe half the time depends on the survey you look at. It's considered to be something about truly, you know, improving the customer experience. And half the time it's just we're gonna save some money.

Chitra [00:14:39] Wondering, what do you think about the need for at stake in Martech to actually converge to make this seamless customer experience possible?

Anand Thaker [00:14:47] Sounds like it's a new thing, but it shouldn't have been. I mean, why or why is Martech and ad tech separate in the first place? I know they given even I study it from a yeah, I do study the space from both. Like a business investment perspective and ad tech is different from categorized differently. But I just I've never understood why. This converge. It's like peanut butter and jelly like that's supposed to be, you know. I mean, yes, great. Those things are great individually. They're great together. They're even better together. But I really think this comes back to what we were talking about earlier. And I think all of us touched on this, which is until you brought this back up again, these silos in who's responsible for touching the customer or engaging with the customer is really what is really what's keeping a lot of the possibilities of targeting and experiences across the organization becoming continually being a challenge. And one of the other challenges has been, too, is that we've got a lot of brands of outsourced, a lot of these capabilities, which means that they don't become they don't own the customer as much as they used to.

David Raab [00:16:00] I think there was a change, which is that back in the day, advertising was not targeted at individuals. Didn't. It was not addressable. And what's changed in the last 20 years or so is that most, nearly all media now actually can be targeted individual like including billboards. I mean, it's just insane. You know, these things that could not be could not have been more impersonal. Mass media, you can now actually target, you know, out of homes. So that actually is a fundamental sea change and that does make advertising much closer to Martech than it used to be. So that's the reason that they're converging that then, as often says, raises organizational issues because they've been done by different people in different specialties. And and sometimes you don't have the same thing called by different names. But now, if you can unify that customer, the minute you start to adjust, individuals, target individuals. Now you have to look at pulling all your data together so you can do the best job possible targeting them. And that brings you back to that central customer data repository. So you know that that's what's driving the convergence. It is, in fact, a fundamental switching how things are done. That's why a lot of advertising, as you just said, is being in insourcing and taking away from the agencies and pulled inside because it's interacting so closely with everything else. The other thing to bear in mind, actually, two other things to bear in mind. First off, the minute you say campaign your sort. That's old thing. Right. Because campaign is bulk, campaign is mass. And, you know, we should be having one to one interactions, which really shouldn't be thought of as campaigns. And the other thing to say is, is that, you know, here we talk about marketing and advertising, which is taking that marketing advertising world. But marketing departments do because marketing departments always did advertising and still treating it as separate for the rest of the customer experience that we're just talking about, that holistic, you know, lifetime journey, customer experience. So when we talk about mad tech, we're still sort of taking the marketing interactions and treating them as separate from the rest of the customer journey. So if we're going to say those are unified, that's even more reason to bring it all together into one giant pot of things that are stirred together and presumably the marketers, the chefs with the big giant spoon.

Chitra [00:18:18] So the Martech and Adtech and the salestech to right?

David Raab [00:18:22] Every tech possible,.

Chitra [00:18:27] So let's just call it all tech and be done with it. Or they could be that exact. Oh, it's amazing.

Chitra [00:18:38] No, no, it's going to be omni tech. I like it.

Chitra [00:18:43] But, you know, speaking of CX, take that that beast tends to actually get left out of the B conversation a lot. And it. I don't know, at least the second half of 2019 somehow. It's been more in, you know, in front of me. And I've heard the film a lot more and heard more conversations, rich conversations on a broader, broader scope than just the as tech experts. So, you know, brain to you, you're your eyes see the stick export right now in his family. So, you know, I'd love to start with you on, you know, talking about what's going on with the with scene stake and how CRM enablement and all the the new narrative that sort of marketing NC is thinking about bringing CS is taken aligning it with what's happening in Martech.

Brent Leary [00:19:35] Yeah, I think it just seems in general the the more that. I guess ads and marketing is going digital and away from the traditional kind of gives an opportunity to bring these folks closer together. Yes, that's one of the things you're seeing. But I really do think that this huge amount of data that's coming in is driving the whole machine learning A.I. portion and allowing for things like next best action to come across or recommendations that come across in the sales application now. So it's it's. We all know that there's been like decades where sales salespeople just don't like using CRM. I mean, they hate it and they don't want to put data in. They don't want to maintain the data. They don't want to look for they because it's been cumbersome. And so you're seeing this opportunity where, you know, where they thought, well, what's in it for me? Know, I'm putting all this data in and I'm not really getting anything out. Now you're starting to see some opportunities for that to change. And I think A.I. and machine learning is kind of driving that. Being able to tell them, hey, you know, you don't even have to. You don't really have to look for stuff, you know, and you don't even have to put all this stuff in. We have this CEO automated processes where we're actually able to bring a lot of that information in. And now instead of you having to spend all your time, you know, putting stuff in and looking for it, now, it's gonna get in there through automated processes. And, oh, by the way, it'll start prompting you for when things you might want to do. Certain things like, you know, if you get a lead in in this industry and then, you know, that's that's has this kind of these five data points that point to the A.I. saying, hey, this is an 80 percent opportunity for, you know, you did to win this deal here. And here are the recommended actions that you can take in order to kind of increase the likelihood likelihood of that happening. Well, now you're giving sales. No reason to actually use CRM because before we're was just a data store. Now it's being something that's actually giving you, you know, next best actions is giving you CEO opportunities to do things. And and if you do these things, here's your likelihood of getting the actual deal done. So you're and you're starting to see more reasons for them to use it. And then the other thing I think you're seeing with sales tax. Now, I don't know if it's called sales tag. It's just the voice thing. It's the whole being able to speak to your applications as opposed to having the, you know, type and swipe and click. I think that's going to be hugely transformational in the next year or so. I went to at least four or five different of these conferences where. It was almost like, you know, they were showing this stuff off, but they were not meaning to show this stuff off. So, you know, I was at Adobe Summit and these guys are talking about, oh, you could talk to your system and find out the best marketing, you know, collateral for your campaign. I'm like, wait a minute, you're just glossing over that part. I mean, usually people have to type and look and do all this stuff and search it. And now you're saying they could just talk and you're starting to talk their applications that, you know, Dreamforce. You know, they they demo that on stage for the second year in a row. Hopefully we're closer to that now. But I think you're starting to see the combination of a buy in and conversational interfaces like voice starting to really impact, you know, and give good reason for sales folks to use this technology going forward.

Chitra [00:23:14] So what do you think the impact of that is going to be on those sort of power equations between, you know you know, now if sales is that much more empowered this year with the or now on with all these smarter and more intelligent technologies, how is that going to change the way we we engage with incentives and market?

Brent Leary [00:23:34] Well, I think one thing is going to happen is if if sales people actually start using CX colors being allowed, then just don't they don't want to. But if they do, that means more data coming in more. You should be better data coming in that should be more up to date data coming in and in it. Anything that gives us war cleaner and more of fuller data, I guess should provide that machine learning much better fuel to create better recommendations, better next month's actions, a better insight as to what will sail on, what will convert and win. And I think if you do all of that, that feeds everything that's going to feed back the marketing, of course, because they're going to want to know, well, well, geez, why did our conversion rate go up so high on this? Well, here this data that shows us why. SALES have kind of been a little bit missing in action, not meaning lead, but they just don't want to deal with these systems. So if you give them a reason to actually say, oh, you're going to benefit here, and if they buy into that, then they're going to use it. And that's going to I think that could be a really significant thing happens over the next year or so.

David Raab [00:24:46] It really changes the nature of the sales job. You know, part of the reason they were always so reluctant to use CRM is because they kind of wanted to keep control. Right. And, you know, if you say, well, we're going to you know, we're going to gather all this data and we're gonna figure out what should be done and what what should be said and when it should be said and how it should be said. It's like, well, you know, can I turn that over to a much more junior person, to put it politely, d skills sales. It kind of makes another production line. You know, we've already done it with business development reps who've taken that prospecting task, which used to be a really large part of the sales person's job with hand that off to another department. And we're pulling in a lot of third party data, as you say, don't things like attention and triggers that again, used to be the salesperson was gathering that network and reassembling it for them and handing it to them. So what does that mean for salespeople? I mean, are they going to be just clerks or are they going to just be like little robots, in which case, of course, we can replace them with robots.

Brent Leary [00:25:47] Well, I think it's going to cause, you know, it's going to cause some sales folks to maybe not be. SALES folks anymore. But I think it's gone up. You know, if you're looking for a newer generation of salespeople and you want to give them, you know, the right tools, say in the right, what motivation? I think, you know, they want a good deal. You don't want to do things just like take order or come in and type. They want to use these tools, but they use these tools to be able to get out there and, you know, kind of do a different kind of sales, which is more relationship based rather than order taking or, you know, kind of, you know, the Biff Loman or the Willy Loman, you know, going door to door and just hoping that you get to the right door. Now, they want to have, you know, better leads. They want to have better sales propositions and they want to have better tools to use. And I think if you give those folks all of that, more likely, they're going to actually be happier what they do and be more effective at what they do.

Anand Thaker [00:26:47] A.I. will replace tasks, not jobs. And if your job is a task. Well, guess what? It's going to get replaced. The the consultative part, right. You know, salespeople are not just selling. They're actually problem solving. And the way that they problem it. I had the benefit of being in the B2B sales space in the energy world and pretty much all that. Everybody knew everybody. And it wasn't a matter of like, you know, hustling for the next like, you know, trying to have leads I got to go through. It was literally, hey, what kind of value can I deliver to you about how you need to frame the problem? Some things you haven't thought about, you know, how do you go about figuring out what your budget needs to look like here? Some other people who can help you with submission, initial steps. Let's say, you know, can I use CDP as an example? There's a lot of stuff you got to do before you get to that point of view. Doing bringing a CDP on and some of the best CV vendors or vendors in their respective spaces will bring, you know, resources to the table to help. Part of that sale. Now some of those value, you know, the customer acquisition costs might be a little higher, but the value of those contracts will be greater as well. So we'll probably see late to kind of distinguishing aspects of a lot of this. With regards to tech one, we'll see. Certainly the AAA fixation of I just made that up and it sounds terrible now. I've said it sounded better in my head, but the AIG vacation of sales, which is pretty much the automated aspect. But then there's the how do we retrain sales or train sales, which actually a lot of these richer information that's being gathered is now being used for as well. It's not your sales manager or sales leader. She's, you know, making sure that you're taking care of, you know, a set of leads in terms of that quantifiable piece. It's more of how often are you touching base with somebody and how much are you really truly progressing on those deals? And then also, why are you working on these other ones? Because they're not going to get you anywhere, because you don't haven't done X, Y and Z to make that happen, which hopefully will build better salespeople. That's what I think I would love to see a lot of now that people are leveraging technology, like you said, Brant, to enhance their capabilities of being able to sell but sell better.

Brent Leary [00:29:04] It's not just, you know, the job is changing. I think, you know, the type of cell yours seems like the kind of the framework is changed as well. We we we're going from like you're buying a product, you know, outright buying a product. There is a transition from that to subscribing to everything, and that's that causes a change in, you know, the job of selling and what tools may be needed or what news training may be needed because, you know, you might be used to selling, you know, selling a product and then don't talk to a customer until the next year. We have an upgrade. And then all of a sudden, hey, I'm here and I'm here to help for you to buy something again. Yeah, that's that's being changed. Your transition to an ongoing subscription where you pay every month. And that means you're going to have to interact every month in some way in order to make that that monthly and, you know, person want to pay again every month.

David Raab [00:30:09] You know, I think what brent said about the shift to subscriptions is really central to this because so much of everything. B2B and B2C is shifting. So that subscription relationship and that service relationship and that could pull you back in the digital transformation that you rarely saw in just a product anymore. You really are selling a product, Plus service. And in fact, you make more money on service anyhow, so that then it goes from a transactional to relational kind of sale. And and maybe that's what people are going to be better at the machines. You know, it's still not too sure what it is the machines can't do, because every time we wake up in the morning, we've seen other reporting of machines doing something that we thought only people could do. And it turns out the machines can do a better.

Chitra [00:30:50] But we do hear a lot about or more and more about salary experience, and I think all that you spoke about in Brand's book about in this in the last few minutes is about bringing in or leveraging technology so that it's easier for salespeople to do what they really best at, which is problem solving, listening, you know, working collaboratively with their customer to come up with better solutions and adding value. They have to, you understand, and use technology like the smarter or more empathetic or a high powered CRM, for example, or sales enablement. That's intuitive and easy to use. They have to understand that they have to leverage it in the best way so that ultimately they can be that more human high relationship kind of, you know, power that can build preference for the company. Like you said. David, did you come so much more relevant in the subscription economy to build preference for a company? Plus is going out and telling a new more delivery or offer of off of product based on the features or whatever. So it's a whole different paradigm and it is enabled by takes all sorry sales guys. You have to understand the tech. You have to use it, but do it. So you can actually do what you love doing most with any natural born sales person, you know, loves to actually work closely with customers to understand how they can have them succeed. Right. Those are the most successful sales guys right at the end of the day. So maybe we'll actually see sales tech helping see this guys be able to do that. And that would be true seller experience.

Chitra [00:32:24] What else did you hear at Dreamforce Brent? What was some of your highlights from from the show this year?

Brent Leary [00:32:31] Well, we have to do that. Well, I mean, I think, you know, that one of the buzz words that came out of that and it kind of fits in with what we've already been talking about, this whole single source of truth. I don't know. SSoT was trending in the last week or so. I mean that was it was there from every keynote, every session that I went to, you know, about customer 360. True for CEO. I don't know if you need to add the true part in there, but, you know, that's that's that's besides the point. That was definitely the big thing. And then, you know, something near and dear to my heart, which was kind of a carryover from last year, was, you know, voice. I think I heard Benioff say, I know I I spoke to a couple of folks voices, the future CRM. I think that was a pretty major statement. And I think it has the potential to be because of what we kind of discussed, making it easier for us to interact with these applications. If we're able to use natural language to do that, that that's a game changer. You know, that that takes a layer of friction away from, you know, folks using applications. And you couple that with the A.I. component that allows folks to get these next best actions, recommendation recommendations. That combination is kind of could be really transformational. If it can ever be able to come together. And so I heard, you know, a lot of that, you know, a lot of single source of truth, you know, integration, being able to pull data from out, not just from the Salesforce cloud, but from the external enterprise applications into that that create that customer profile to create the single source of truth. Yeah. That was their big thing last over the last couple of weeks. Their dream for.

Chitra [00:34:32] But that's why they all making CDP visas and they'd like. David had spoken about the CDP inside model and a lot of things. Couple of episodes ago, which is basically most of the, you know, the the the end point of the last mile technologies that we used to actually activate the data has to is naturally going to start building in those CDP like abilities because they want to be able to pull in all the data and then use it to find the time to actually do the same lo the marketing or whatever.

Brent Leary [00:35:10]  first time you heard that customer 360 view is like 20, 30 years ago. So we're we're just finally starting to get there. It seems like it it doesn't make sense that it's theorem and is a foundational aspect of X since we've been talking about it forever. Oh, yeah. That's. It's to be determined, but is definitely, you know, I think that's a driver here. Just like commerce was separate from CRM. Just three or four years ago. Well, I guess Oracle bought ACG longer before that. But they kind of got lost in there for a while. But it seems like Cyrus I mean, SAP bought hybrids and then Salesforce bought demand where and then they bought Cloud Grays and then everybody was buying that thing. Then, you know, Adobe bought Magento. So, you know, these things become more than just integration points. They become something that needs to be foundational. And it seems like CDP. It's gone in that same direction. If you want to use the single source of truth as the hand of the catch phrase for that. OK, yeah, I see it, but you can see it happen. I'm surprised Microsoft hasn't gotten one yet. You know, maybe Adobe.

Anand Thaker [00:36:38] Microsoft and Adobe are really, really close buds now. So yeah. But yeah, that's out. That's how Microsoft plays. They like it's all about the relationship. Right. And maybe they can. I'm surprised we haven't talked about. I'm surprised. It's sort of single source of truth. That's that's something that's been around for a long time. And we how many times do we keep reminding ourselves that just because all the data is existence doesn't doesn't mean that it's always the truth? But maybe it should be single source of trust because, you know, CRM arms used to be the single source to rule on things. But maybe it should be the single source of truth, because that's the perspective of how we perceive that information. And we would act on it as opposed to the single source of truth, which implies someone else has made that call for us in the first place. But now you're messing with the marketing man.

Brent Leary [00:37:27] You're messing with the marketing. I'll know that at least at least the acronym stays the same. I think that's right.

Anand Thaker [00:37:35] I don't want to I don't want to repaint anything and certainly don't want a change. Hash hashtags out there, a big believer in efficiencies. And we might as well. You know, we could change the meaning while we're at it.

Chitra [00:37:47] Yes, the single source of trust land, not single source of truth. Right.

Chitra [00:37:52] So another piece that needs to be built into this whole cohesive ecosystem is the analytics piece, right? And then we're seeing a lot of even the CDP build to one was to collect the data and manage it, organize it and manage it. One was to do the analytics piece. And the third was, you know, how do you activate it at the last mile through the CRM or truly or marketing automation or whatever. So let's talk about that middle piece, the analytics piece. That is one of the areas that I think also will see a lot of change, an evolution in the coming year. Well, we had quite a few guests on from analytics companies. In 2019, we had Pedro, our L.A. from Looker. And we also had just slimmed down from al-Qaeda. And that's I don't know how far those standalone you know, I'd love to hear what you think about how this the landscape is going to change as analytics, something that's going to just be built into this whole integrated piece. Or is it these standalone analytics companies will still have some value to offer just in the way they're helping marketers present the data more visually.

David Raab [00:38:58] Analytics is already being built into a lot of these products. At least half and probably more than half have some flavor of machine learning as a module. And if you look at obviously what Salesforce and all those guys should do with Einstein and the other sorts of things. Those are also analytics. But but if you look at like Google Cloud or eight of us, they all have these huge AML machine learning capabilities that are built into the databases of the database level. So it's, you know, that's been done. I mean, we know where that's. We know that there'll be more and more analytical capabilities provided as part of your base layer of technology. I think personally, the more interesting thing is visualization, because we were just talking a lot about voice interfaces. And personally, I'm not a huge fan of voice interfaces, but I think. Visualization is a by and large of vastly more efficient way to communicate information than by voice. You have to listen and comprehend. So I think if you're really going to look at ways that we're going to improve productivity kind of, you know, by orders of magnitude, I think improved visualization of findings so we can trust the item to find interesting findings. But then we have to present that to humans, at least for the moment, so they can make decisions. Right. And to keep up with the volume of findings that they are in the MLA going to come up with. You're going to have to present that in some efficient fashion. That's for visualization comes in. So to me, that is the frontier where, to be honest, we're nowhere near maturity on that, I think. You know, we still see some interesting little nibbling at the edges of the visualization challenge. But I think that the opportunities are just just beginning to be explored in ways that we can really present data effectively from a decision standpoint.

Brent Leary [00:40:56] There is a partnership that Microsoft announced with AT&T, which I think is gonna be really interesting from a standpoint of why our bigger wireless broadband in data visualization with all the data that [00:41:07]Microsoft has at its disposal. And Microsoft is doing really interesting things and partnerships in that [5.8s] partnership. I mean, they announced the Salesforce thing. They announced, you know, Oracle announced one IT service, now announce something with Microsoft. They'd like partner soft at this point. But one of the world interesting ones was this thing with AT&T around 5G. I don't know what to make of it yet, but the possibilities are kind of interesting around that. And I think, you know, they're they have their power behind how they're, you know, analytics and they have tons of data and they've got productivity data. They've got operational data, they got enterprise data, they got LinkedIn data. They had data coming all out of their cells. And so what can they do with 5G and data visualization and all this data that can be interesting. I'm really looking forward to seeing what that kind of takes place with that.

Anand Thaker [00:42:02] You know, analytics, generally speaking, has been doing three things. They help us collaborate. They help us. They helped train us, which a lot of people failed to use data to do this, or maybe they do it and they don't recognize that that's happening. And of course, the decision making part, we all talk about making decisions. But one of the challenges in analytics and marketing analysts today is we don't have enough information or we have too much. And there's not a nice, happy medium to connect the dots. It's not enough to have the data we used to call it, you know, watch. You're basically trying to drive through the rearview mirror. And that's unfortunately where most analytics are today. I think the future event, marketing, analytics or analytics, generally speaking, will be on a couple of fronts. One is a lot of intelligence will start to help us understand how data which correlates together is something that we haven't seen before. To help us understand maybe new segments we should go after, perhaps new offerings. What's resonating? These things should tell us what's going on or at least what to look for, what to investigate. The other aspect of it would be starting to forecast, and I think that that is the over the horizon right now for a lot of people, because we just talked about most enterprises are still getting their data together. Most SMB is are still trying to do some of the blocking and tackling. But what we'll start to see after the decision making, you know, this is helping using data to understand how to do better, making better decisions is how do we start to forecast the information that we have at our disposal, which gives us better anticipation of what we should expect or how we should expect. Because then what ends up coming after that is is basically modeling and taking those forecasts and modeling different situations. And what happens at that point is we're really going to be as marketers understand what's happening in front of us, rather than just having data to support things that we already want to do. And this is where we start to actually lead and generate in this part of my optimism for where marketing leaders can become the next generation, successful CEOs. Because if you have those capabilities with you and your team or the instinct of customers and being able to see beyond the data in front of you, that's that's where ahead. So I know this is all very ethereal to the degree that this I want to point to everybody. This is where we're headed.

Chitra [00:44:31] I spoke about devices, and that sort of brings us out to round out this conversation because devices are going to play or be the battleground for the application of all these new technologies. More specifically, smart speakers, mobile phones know smartphones, especially with the advent of 5G and how we can use VR and VR and those sorts of things on mobile and smart devices. I'd love to hear from each one of you. What do you think are going to be those few transformative technology, especially with a little bit of a of, you know, bias towards B2B marketing and what what the relevant technologies are going to be there for marketers to think about in 2020?

Brent Leary [00:45:16] On the keynote at Dreamforce, they you know, they they had a little Einstein election device to showcase what they are doing in voice. And it was literally a little guy looking like Einstein, but it was a voice assistant. And when you see that, I mean, I've I've been looking for the last two or three years to see how enterprises are bringing this stuff in. And to see that, I mean, you know, front and center as opposed to just sort of like, you know, yeah, we're working on some stuff. But they're creating their own little Einstein device so they can illustrate what, you know, kind of bring a little color to what they're what they think the impact of voice will be on B to be not not on consumers, but they're talking about how, you know, you're able to improve the employee experience by allowing them to be able to use natural language to work with enterprise applications. And I mean, to me, that's going to be a very significant thing. I was at work will open World Night, had a conversation with the V.P. of digital H.R. and how they are rolling out to like 90000 employees, a digital assistant. The Oracle assistants are going to sit on a mobile device that allows their you these 90000 employees, of which. Ninety five percent of them, I think they said, are mobile, will allow them to ask questions that are specific to their job, like how much time do I have offer? I'd like to schedule giving this Friday off and be able this instead of, you know, fill out forms or go to an application. Hey, Oracle. I don't know what the key phrase is, but I would like to take off this. This Friday. Can I do that and have that work its way through to get a yes or no answer? And so what does that do that? Then it just enhances the employee's experience doing their job. And I think those are the kinds of things that are kind of under the radar, things that have impact not only on the employee experience, but it impacts the customer experience, because now they're able to they're interacting with an employee that's just happier. That has the ability to do their job in a much easier way. So I think there's some impact that's going to be coming from these things that, you know. Yeah, we talk about how. Yeah, you can ask Alexa order a pizza and all those kind of things, but you're seeing more and more where you're going to be able to do things like, you know, what's the conversion rate on this, you know, Web site activity, you know, and get a quick response back because once again, these interfaces are tied back to the API. So it's really a pathway to get the intelligence that you would have had to, you know, type and swipe and click. And you do all sorts of machinations for. But if you're able to say, hey, give me a conversion rate off of this customer activity and get it back within a second. That's improving the employee experience and the customer experience, so I think there's it's it's gonna be a big year, I think, for voice, but I think voice. Hi, back to what David said with data visualizations and being able to connect it, to be able to ask for something, get this rich visualization back. That's where I think it gets really interesting.

David Raab [00:48:44] And I totally agree. The voice probably more than anything else. What makes like the case is that he just suggested useful is that you don't have to figure out which system you're talking to. Is it H.R. system? Is the scheduling system? Is this system that system? It's like just so that is all wired and kind of behind the voice. And that's actually what makes it easier, less so than then asking versus typing. Right. So so so that data integration layer, that really smart integration layer that can figure out not just has all the systems connected, but then can actually figure out, oh, this question, which is a natural language processing problem, relates to that system. And here's why I get the answer. I think that stuff is all huge. So it's it's it's it's natural language processing additions to voice to language conversion going on. I also think location is something that just keeps cropping up every place. And so much of what we do is determined by location or understanding. Location understands kind of what we want to accomplish and what this particular question means in this context. I think tracking location better both for me to be and B to see is going to be something that also has a big impact that it possibly not quite as widely recognized as I think it should be or as I think I think the impact really will be, because there's a lot of smart people working on location.

Anand Thaker [00:50:09] We talk about a lot of things that are very aspirational and they're great to go aim for. We buy them, we put them in place, but then they just don't get utilized. You know, for me, I think the next decade really is going to be about really this hiring and training of people in terms of and I know that sounds a little off the beaten path from your typical marketing technology type of inspiration. But but think about it, right? I mean, we're talking about breaking down silos, which means that we need to find ways to be able to collaborate better. What are the tools and solutions and capabilities that will help us react better? I mean, we've seen some of the emergence with Slack and. Yes, some of the messaging tools trying to make that happen. You know, we're seeing like the where Brent's head is at with voice because that's how we actually talk to each other. That's how we collaborate with each other. That's how we work together. But also, there is the need to be able to understand and collaborate even with the partners we have were the customers directly, more intimately. So how do we make those connections and how do we build a little bit more working together, keep the capacity? We've talked about in terms of analytics, right. How do these analytics help us make better decisions or, you know, help us understand what we need to be doing next? I think what we're talking about now is how do we find, you know, say next generation, you know, the next crop of cohorts of college grads or people who are coming out? And then how do you train them up very quickly. But at the same time, how do you take your existing workforce and then make them happy? I think Sir Richard Branson, Virgin Airlines and the Virgin brand, I mean, he always talks about just his first focus is his people. And then they'll and then they'll take care of the customers themselves. I think that's where we'll see the next 10 years in terms of the change and the evolution of things as we might actually be going taking a step back in technology. The use of that and the disruption will be in how we bring people together and how we enhance their capabilities as well.

Chitra [00:52:13] Thank you so much, David. Anand and Brent, of course, for joining us today.

Anand Thaker [00:52:20] Thank you for being such a great shepherd for us. You know, are on the podcast this year.

Chitra [00:52:26] Great. Thanks. And hopefully we'll see you all in 2022. Then stay safe. Have a great rest of the year and enjoy the celebrations.

[00:52:39] . Thanks for joining us. See you next week with our take on the big news, the Martech World. Logon to Martech advisor dot com for more expert commentary on all things Martech.

The Podcast Team

David Raab

Founder, CDP Institute and Principal, Raab AssociatesWidely recognized independent expert in customer data platforms, marketing technology and analytics; David specializes in marketing trends, technology strategy, and vendor

Anand Thaker

Martech Industry and Growth AdvisorA recognized MarTech, decisioning and AI/ML expert; Anand advises growth and go-to-market leaders and investors for global brands and funds while also being active in the startup ecosystem.

Chitra Iyer

Editor-in-Chief of Martech Advisor Editor-in-Chief of Martech Advisor and marketing veteran is the host of the show.

Episode Highlights

Guest Profile

Brent Leary

Brent Leary is co-founderandPartnerofCRMEssentialsLLC, CRM consulting/advisory firm focused on small and mid-size enterprises. He has over 15 years of  IT and management consulting experience working on projects for Microsoft, Research In Motion, BellSouth, Compaq, and the state of Georgia’s Department of Economic Development. He serves on the national board of the Customer RelationshipManagement Association as Vice President of Technology and as CRM subject matter expert for the Small Business Technology Task Force.